We're in the widening gap phase now for sure, or at least its becoming clear how far the gap already is.

The final step in every Marxism based cycle is the uprising of the proletariat, so that's the fun bit we need to look towards.. lol :)

WS

The Man realised a long time ago ;-)

"Capitalism does not permit an even flow of economic resources. With this system, a small privileged few are rich beyond conscience, and almost all others are doomed to be poor at some level. That's the way the system works. And since we know that the system will not change the rules, we are going to have to change the system." Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think capitalism ends in so much abundance that no one gives a shit.

Or so much shit no gives their abundance

0% interest rates, meme stocks, puts and calls going up simultaneously, sure looks like an end game scenario.

The big flaw of capitalism..
One day all the super rich (super useless) will realize the world seizes to go round without ground level hard workers and skilled people.

you mean robots, right? ;0

I doubt Communism unfolded exactly how he predicted... so at least he got it half right.

Cheers BB 😁👍🍻💚

Not quite. "The working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes".

Too true 😅

I love these talks....but let me take the opposing side of the view and say the real reason capitalism works and proven to work than communism (even communist countries like China has no option but to conform to capitalist notions)...Is because of it's destructive & Contradictory nature which allows room for error, destruction and reconstruct....Flexibility like biology of trial and error that leads eventually to efficiency....So yes there are aspects of communism that needs to be involved and would allow under capitalism....But not necessarily Viseversa....

Finally Communism has historically tried and Achieved Growth without sustainability.....So it has already proven not correct in REAL TERMS!

BUT we should look for a confluence between two and integrate to create a better system....again think of China and their growth spurt over the last 2-decades....this is after they have allowed Capitalist ideas to be joined with communism....

I just said all my perspective and please forgive me if there is anything incorrect ...this based on my limmited knowledge

lot to agree with here and anytime something reconciles with evolution

Absolutely. I encourage you all to read the manifesto if you haven't already. It will blow your mind how accurately he describes the current situation in capitalism. I'm a proud member of the one of the fastest growing communist party worldwide, and we're working had to organise and educate people on how communism would work in the 21st century. DM me if you're interested. I could talk communism all day long.

whats the elevator pitch?

Can't believe that the commies are on here. Beggars belief. 🤣

Do what thou wilt, and harm none

if anyone can parse this bs on wikipedia id love to see it

Here's a shot: true liberty results in the destruction of capitalism.

is that from abundance or indifference?v

I find today’s liberal left to be very authoritarian in nature. They use all the kind fluffy buzz words but ram it down your throat with a hot poker.

This must make the Right and Far Right complete Nazis then I guess. It’s all relative.

This rhetoric about liberalism being authoritarian is just propaganda served up by the Right for the most part (including Kier Starmer’s Labour, which is essentially just right of center Tory at this point) If you buy into it, you have fallen for it.

B.s confirmed. The libertarian/authoritarian is a different axis from the left/right paradigm. The left/right axis doesn't really matter anymore. Classic liberalism much more akin to Conservative values.
The more relevant terms when talking of the laissez-faire ideas are whether you are a consequentialist, or deontological libertarian I.e: do consequences matter or is it the rules that matter?

Very interesting perspective but who determines the consequences or the rules?

The government determine the rules, generally speaking don't they?
The consequentialist libertarian generally would say that they are not against force (by government)per se, but they believe in strong private property rights because it generally makes people happy and prosperous when they have them.

Then who determines the government?

The people who vote for them

it makes sense: private property for what we create, public property for what's already sitting on the planet.

The Beano is as much an encyclopedia as Wikipedia. https://libcom.org/article/libertarian-marxist-tendency-map + any anarcho history from Bakunin and Stirner onward.

Left and right are wings of the same bird. Liberty is when the bird flies forward. And people are in awe of the lack of polarity. And learn to love each other again.

It's Leftism without the authoritarianism.

A true president like that and the only one in the world is Milei Argentina , guy saved his country from crashing down due to importing US values in mostly a Traditional hard working country.

Any update on this, bruv?

The people of Argentina have given him a bigger mandate than ever and rejected the Peronists.

Yeah, skipping the whole 20 billy bailout there son. You a soon to be Reform voter practicing the spin?

Innovation is always the best answer for this shit; a technology that makes it possible to compete without a huge investment will end the monopoly. Then low and behold the old guys won’t be sucking your blood anymore they will be alive and competing!

Waiting for the White Knight like this is great for the long run but it doesn’t change what everyone has to face right now.

There's an old solution for monopoly suppliers, Cooperatives. If a monopoly is owned by its users then the whole conflict between greed and utility just disappears. Cooperatives been around for farming since before my grandfather’s time I don’t know exactly how long but they were used to buy big tools and grain elevators that every farmer could share.

Yes if you organise you get some of the power of the cooperative just by virtue of having done it. I would think this is the best solution, to actually start the cooperative and keep an open ear to the monopolist, seeing if things can be settled at the earliest possible stage.

If the users organize a boycott it can force the monopolist into better behavior. Though it can be kind of ugly and tends to leave a bitter taste for both sides. A theatrical action before this could be a petition or media generation on social networks.

theres already enough of this bullshit in the world, we need to do something constructive not cry for scraps

if you change communism to community then you dont have to go very far for an answer

If you shit in a pint glass, it looks like mud!

if you put mud in a pint glass it takes like shit

the family fridge

German Peasant's War (where the word communism derives), Paris Commune, two Russian revolutions minus the Bolsheviks, Makhnochina, Spanish revolution, German revolution, May 68, etc. etc. etc.

Losing in the first half don't mean the game's over.

I don't think Communism has ever worked as Capitalists are always creaming off the top.

A great book on the subject is Eat The Rich by the US satirist (and huge drug consumer) P.J. O'Rourke. I think his and my politics are probably polar opposites, but you could get fucked up at a party with him and have an amazing time. Anyway, good book. Breaks down all sorts of different political stances, and Good Communism is one chapter, and Bad Communism another. He's a funny guy, but maybe don't consider it as in depth reasoned academic analysis.

Ah, fuck. He died in 2022. No future parties.

kibbutzes

The reason you don't hear any success stories is because there ain't none.

Come on down voters give me a success story if you don't like the truth?? Bloody Marxists never except that it doesn't work. What ever iteration you can think of it WONT WORK!!!! everyone being the same sucks the fun out of life accept that hard work pays!

I'm not advocating for Communism but our society is full of people grafting their respective genitalia off that are still struggling financially. The idea that hard work pays ( properly) is a idea propagated by people seeking to exploit the labour of others. Nobody should need to claim benefits whilst working full time and yet...
Fwiw, I do advocate for a mixed economy. Nationalised energy, health, water, public transport etc and luxuries at the will of the free market.

You shouldn't be allowed to claim any benefits while in full time employment. It's crazy, we are basically subsidising employers who ought to be paying more.

And I hope that, one day, employers decide paying a living wage is more important than ever increasing profits such that in work benefits are no longer necessary. I propose a link between maximum and minimum pay within an organisation. Let's say; no pay ( overall package including bonuses, perks and dividends) higher than 5x the lowest full time salary.

it wouldn't even have to be a regulation, the government does business with so many companies and beneficiaries. if they don't have these multiples in place no people's funds.

employers don't make that call so much as owners do and when the owner is the stock market it's quite blind to anything but profits.

when the owners are the employees this changes priorities.

Exactly this - capitalism needs the grafters, the hardworking cogs to keep coming in to replace those that fall off or fall through the cracks.

"that hard work pays" is often true and the capitalists don't only pontificate this to the masses they teach it to their children. children they practise communism with.

You should look into some unbiased reporting on the soviet Union, and some witness statements from the older generation who lived through it.

You will find that many of them tell you life was better in the USSR, than in post USSR Eastern Europe and Russia. Besides that they were several decades ahead of the west on womens rights and social services.

But like anything good, the Americans bring it down from the inside, or out, USSR, Great Britain, either way. Their media controls the narritive, and communism effects their ability to steal all the money. There is a reason Cinema is oversaturated with anti Communist rhetoric.

I'd honestly rather have the worst communist government, than be America number 2.

i'd settle for being ireland number 0.5 :)

they currently have more than double the uk's gdp per capita

Yeah and east germany was the most successful communist country of all, just ask anyone that wasn't killed trying to leave.

Have you ever listened to Konstantin Kisin? A Jewish family - He moved when he was 9 from the ussr to England at the end of the soviet Union just before the fall. His first hand account of his own life tells a very different story to what you describe.

love triggernometry

The communists on this thread think KK first hand account of late soviet communism is invalid for some reason.
I suspect many of them have never listened to a reasonable, adult centrist common sense. Perhaps it is not synonymous with the cult like adherence to social, political orthodoxy that would like to see nebulous victimhood everywhere.

I’m sure there are loads they just don’t teach us about them. Capitalism doesn’t work either does it? Too many greedy pocket filling bastards. We are all the same having money doesn’t make you better than anyone else, the fact you are here spouting this shows what a sad state the world is in 😞

under capitalism hard work has never paid and never will pay lmfao. communism actually prioritises labour, capitalism is about fat pigs at the top skimming off 99% of the profit we produce for them. do you not find it utterly insane tesco has like 5 different in-house brands with varying prices for essentially the same product? or that having less money means you have to settle for lower quality products that are worse for you and spoil faster?

So, you don't think lifting 4/5ths of the world out of relative poverty can be considered "paying off"?
OK Che, communism good 🤣👌

there are children starving in this very country

do you have a source for this? not trying to challenge so much as i would like to learn more about it. maybe there is even a way the community could help.

food for the hungry is legit and accepts crypto

there are community outreach programs and obviously government funded systems like food banks to help, but the crisis only really exists because the capitalist system is designed that way. we have the resources to end world hunger but it's not economically beneficial so it will never happen

these are sources on food insecurity in the uk for 2023 and 2024:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9209/
https://foodfoundation.org.uk/initiatives/food-insecurity-tracking#tabs/Round-15

Does the existence of those children make anything I said less true?
Strawman though. I didn't make a claim that there is no poverty in any country. I think you missed the qualifiers "relative" and "4/5ths" of the world.
I would say, that "starving" inarguably applies to way less than 1 in 5 children in the UK, US or anywhere in the West which makes your point about the ills of capitalism fairly moot in context.
I am no fan of cronyism, and I don't think capitalism is utopia, but it's insane to try and persuade anybody that communism would do better than this.
Thanks for the downvotes. I have over a thousand upvotes and less than 30 down.
Drop me a line next time you are tipping your bathwater into the atalantic. I'll do it too 🤣

"I have over a thousand upvotes and less than 30 down"

This is one of the saddest things I've ever read on the internet xD

TLDR

Ah, the Lords prayer of the troll world.
In other words, you have nothing worth saying because you are too vacuous to argue your way out of the little communist hole you dug 🤣
Thick.

found the reddit moderator 😂

Do you mean the actual communists who don't want to respond to fair and cogent points about their lack of reasoning?

Kerala India is a success story

Hey man, great discussion, and I'm no authority but I had to retort to your 'hard work pays' comment: I have to disagree, hard work doesn't pay - call me whatever but nurses, teachers, delivery drivers, anyone in public service, works their asses off for little pay and much abuse from all sides.

We exist in Capitalism and while hard work and 'hustle' works for a short period for a small number, hard work is not a critical proponent of Capitalism, that's increasingly evident, imo.

Nice alt greenbeans/cherry cola. I can't believe you are actually calling other people schizo and creating multiple accounts to appear to support yourself 🤣

you are a literal schizo, my comment was just insulting you for being a pathetic redditor bragging about 1000 upvotes ,never mentioned politics, this guys actually responding with points and now you dont respond because you schizophrenically think im him. 😂😂😂

hilarious thanks for proving your sanity

You didn't respond with any political talk aside from your comment about reddit that makes NO sense. Yes, you really didn't. But you did downvote every comment I made on this thread within a minute when you appeared on it before we had any interaction. Just as restricted account Tiger man did 🤣

you bragged about having 1000 upvotes which is pathetic redditor behaviour 😂 not that difficult to figure out as long as you arent an obsessed psychotic responding 5 times to a little comment, oh wait 😂😂😂

I'm actually really surprised that you are hating on reddit. There are so many commies on there that want everybody else to do the hard work for them. Sounds up your street.

Kerala India is a success story

There is. It's UK

I came here to say this. Glad someone else knows what's going on.

It's gradual. Socialism is the route to communism. The NHS, which we are all trained from an early age to worship, was one of the first big steps in socialism. Benefits too.

Do you all remember when Richard Madeley of all people called out Susan Michie for being a member of the Communist party? She was a main player in the 'behaviour science' part of the scamdemic. Do you remember how we were all pressured into performing that awful clap for the NHS gesture? That was like something out of North Korea/China, where citizens are softly compelled into worshipping the state - like those obvious crocodile tears that were shed over Kim of N Korea.

Ugh, most people are too close to it to see it but it is ABUNDANTLY clear.

I would recommend anyone to watch Yuri Bezmenovs lecture on how the west gets subverted to Communism. He was a soviet defector who used to subvert countries and bring them into the soviet fold for a living.

@Chambertin4 I wish we lived in the world you think we live in xD

The rich people who own the media want to push an ideology that stops them being able to hoarde all the wealth? care to explain how that makes sense?

im happy living right here

open source software (you're soaking in it)

i think all the best examples of communism are monuments

I don't think you'll find any. They've tried it and hundreds of millions died. Ok in principle but man's greed quickly takes over.

yeah it's the trickery of it from the knowers side and the sheer gullibility from the mark.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

To the naive person, this quote from Marx sounds like everyone will just pull their own weight for others and everyones needs will be met.

But with the benefit of hindsight, it is clearly a recipe for slave labour/the gulag system where each man is worked to his utmost but only has his basic needs met. Pretty clear with the benefit of hindsight.

There are no luxuries. Worked to the max, as much as your body can stand and in return you are provided a concrete bed, thin blanket and bowl of gruel twice a day. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Concrete bed?
This could easily be satire. Thanks for the laughs. xD

Yes, the realities of a fringe political experiment that has resulted in serious human disaster and loss of life every single time it has been tried makes great satire if you have your head so far in the sand that you can't and won't learn from the past. Come on Che, you are convincing nobody with your smarmy , condescending replies that do not rebut the subject matter. It's totally lazy.

“Best examples of communism”? A bourgeois framing! The Paris Commune—1871—was the first workers’ government: producers seized power, abolished class privilege. Short-lived, but its essence: *proletarian dictatorship* as communism’s midwife. True communism isn’t a “model”—it’s the *movement* to bury capital.

Kerala (India) is the best example of communism. It’s a massive success story and I really hope the party can grow into other states of India

Patria o Muerte
Che Guevara ✊

Ants 🐜

If we ask what communism is attempting which is elimination of hierarchy, collective ownership and resource equality it looks good on the surface but in reality if you look at Cuba and ask any Cuban that managed to fled the country they will tell you when communism is applied through force and suppression it disrupts and destroys instead of harmonising. Sadly we feel it never comes without corruption at it's core...maybe Vietnam?

It doesn't work
Never has, never will.
The communists and socialists will tell you that " it just hasn't been done properly"
Problem is, they always need other peoples money to spend...

The West is the best. Don't have a Mao

The only people with positive stories perished in the gulags.

"It was a laugh in the beginning, but things went steeply downhill shortly after."

seriously the first few years in the gulag are brilliant

Some people apparently laughed themselves to death.

Its a pipe dream, we are all living under an authoritarian dictatorship disguised as something else and it doesn't matter where you are that's just how it is.
What doesn't seem to be understood is that despite what you are led to believe nearly everyone in the world has more in common with eachother than they don't and non of the current leadership, the oligarchs or the current appointed shop floor managers (politicians) aren't doing anything about it.
And to get a rise from people.
China is winning on making it better and we are not allowed to participate in that.
Although realistically China is winning at the current version and realistically China has always been winning except for a minor blip.

Not exactly a success story but interesting fact. There are more cannabis users per capita in Communist North Korea than there are in any other country. They smoke to relieve the pain of living there.

Best example of communism... in the ground... deep in the ground with the devil from whence it came.

yet when everyone looks above and sees devils we know what cycle communism - or now capitalism - is in.

Cambodia - says it all.

It doesn’t work people become lazy and there will always be those who have and those who have nothing.

Argentina’s current turnaround under Javier Milei from socialist basket case to small state and low interference is what you should be talking about. We don’t need the public sector time to slash it.

We need to get our self respect back relying on the state has made us weak and pathetic.

We are already experiencing communism even in the modern world , it's a hybrid between communism and democracy , based on feelings and personal I , me Happiness and DEI.
Don't work , hand outs , nobody knows what a woman is , men are all monsters and rapists , everyone can be whatever they FEEL , massive division - past remembering - payouts for past events , people split into groups protesting, government is everything - Marxsism 1:1 .
You already have 6 - 7 nations that have fallen fighting for this aspect -
Argentina - down - Saved by Milei
Columbia - down
Venezuela - down
Chile - About to fall
Salvador - Down - But saved by Bukele
Australia - About to fall
USA - About to fall - massive border issues and most cities are walking dead with people zombies being poor and homeless.
UK - about to crash due to importing victimhood across all minorities , brits on mute mode not even saying anything to anyone.
Go woke in a country and your entire society crashes.
Capitalism + Merrit Based society is the only one working.
This has been in the works tho since the 90s - starting with the feminisation of men and masculinisation of women - Split up with your men , you can do whatever you want , then they wake up at 40's with a carrer , no fam and alone crying on Socials crying for a men.
Men - don't react , be soft , toxic masculinity , every reaction has been deemed as something is wrong with you.
Therapy is all processed from the perspective of a woman , so men don't go to that.
Men just kill themselves at some point due to loneliness , women keep talking and talking and move on.
This is where you are at in 2024 in the Western World's
So majority of people need to stop and go back to standards otherwise Societies crash entirely , we see the results Live ongoing
North Korea is the only one truly communist spot ON and it's only because the majority of the population simply wants to live like that , they don't know anything else , never did , not every nation is attracted to this notion of rich , poor ,progress yourself some just want to live like in a big Foster care home totally controlled.

Communism is inherently tyrannical. History shows that. There aren’t any examples of success for a reason. It goes against the human spirit. Millions more died die to its tyranny than under the Nazis but you never see documentaries on the BBC or Netflix about Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Capitalism isn’t perfect by a long way but meritocracy is natural and drives progress. People to an extent sort themselves into roles and structures on natural ability and interest. Socialism just teaches people to rely on the state whilst the state gets to dictate how people think and behave. It’s ideological tyranny on the one extreme and financial exploitation of a liberal society by the few on the other. My grandad was a carpenter and paid his subs to his union for years until he acknowledged the financial and ideological corruption that it was based on.

retard can't even spell laissez-faire 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Retard can't even argue against the substance of my position.
You've not made one good point about anything on this thread 🤣

I think his graph answers your question: Pretty Fuckin Soon

If any AI and robots do the work without getting paid it doesn't sound like we need a whole lot of money.

It doesn’t sound like we need a whole lot of people more like!

People would just do what they wanted to do. People wouldn’t be chasing money, but chasing their passions. I was a chef for two years, but fucked it off because the money and hours were shit! If money wasn’t an object and I could do it when I felt like it then that’s what I’d do.

so thats why theres negative interest rates

Read life 3.0 by max tegmark. There is a vast community funded by Elon Musk reseraching AI and its potential as we speak. I wonder if the Simpsons can predict the eventuality that machines could become superior to humans like they did with forecasting Donald Trump as President.

yeah they oughta add an a.i. character for homer to play off of

Don't worry about it, AI will figure it out for us.

But the bottom line is, the corporations that are investing in AI still need to make their profits too. If no one works, no one has money, so how would these corporations stay afloat?

There will need to be some sort of equilibrium - much as (most) humans now realise we can't keep burning Earth's resources, AI systems wouldn't be programmed to make humanity defunct. Not unless the world manages to move away from its capitalist consumerist ambitions; which it won't. We're greedy creatures.

if everything we want is fed by an ai created vr feed we may still be consumers but things gonna be damn cheap.

Check the PDF in the link out. also Elon musk said AI will eventually take over all jobs and we all get a universal wage worldwide 🤷‍♂️

Once the textile loom has finished devastating the working landscape.

Lol the luddites are still operating against the looms as we speak. Especially up North.

i thought you were joking so i looked it up. ffs